Wednesday, November 15, 2017

2017 Winter GM Meetings: News and Thoughts

I should have probably started this Monday, but wanted to get my other posts out first.  The news leading up to the meetings were Sabean's two interviews in the week prior to the start of the meetings.

The first was in the new coaches announcements (also, Rick Schu announced as assistant hitting coach at some point), when Sabean noted that the team's main areas of improvement that they are focused on are defensive CF, starting 3B, and bullpen improvement.

The second was in an interview he gave The Athletic's Tim Kawakami, where he noted that they will have to make tough choices, saying that beyond Posey and Bumgarner, anyone else could be in play, as long as the move improves the Giants.  I assume improvement means qualities that was mentioned before, getting younger and more athletic, better defensively. 

I will add what I know to have been said in recent days in the post below, and either comment future comments or edit the post with new news, haven't decided best route yet.

ogc thoughts

Here are the news I've heard so far:

  • Evans said that there are no plans for trading Bumgarner, but apparently left unsaid that he could be had with a stupendous offer.  I would prefer not to trade him, I still regret trades like Marichal and Perry, and would rather ride this out with Posey-Bumgarner era intact.  But I understand the allure of this, if someone offers a ton of great prospects, would be hard to say no, and while I would disagree, if the package is great and has a replacement for Bumgarner, I can be on board.  But a pitcher like Bumgarner is rare, like a Gibson or Krukow, competitor to the death who will summon up the will to win in most games in the playoffs.
  • Stanton is rumored to have said that he would need to be convinced to join the Giants, as the source said that the Giants and two other teams expected to be pursuing him are not preferred destinations.  It was also noted that he grew up a Dodger's fan.  Another rumor noted that the Dodgers have started to more seriously pursue him, and with their farm system, will drive up the price of getting Stanton.  Perhaps a sign of this, Heliot Ramos has now been mentioned as a possible prospect to send along in a deal.  Prior rumors had the Giants packaging Cueto, Arroyo, and Corry to get Stanton (Cueto to Cubs, Cubs send a couple of players to Miami).  
  • Another rumored trade is Panik to the Yankees for Castro, Cessa, and Austin.  I don't see the benefits of this move for the Giants, other than more bodies for their 40-man, which they don't have space for anyway.   Plus, Castro is signed for big money already, and would take up most of the CBT budget space, while getting an arguably lesser offensive and defensive player.  If the other players were good, I can accept that but Austin is a so-so prospect in my eyes, Cessa not even that good a prospect.  Austin was so bad recently that he was waivered in 2015 and nobody took him.  But at least he's been on the BA Top 30 Yankees prospect list, Cessa was never even been on that list.
  • On the defensive CF front, Evans noted that Duggar is so advanced that the Giants might look at short-term options for upgrading CF.
  • As well, the Giants have been named as kicking the tires on defensive CF's Billy Hamilton (Reds) and Jackie Bradley Jr (Boston).  Bradley is both an offensive and defensive upgrade, and thus would cost more to acquire.  Perhaps a trade for Belt, would work, as they need upgrade at 1B, but not sure what they have in farm system.  Hamilton would be a better defensive upgrade over Bradley, but a hit on our offense, so would cost less in terms of trade, perhaps even just prospects.  Given the news that the Giants could look at short-term options, free agent Jarrod Dyson might be the transitional player to fill that role, he could platoon with Slater or Williamson in CF, until Duggar is ready in 2018-19, since he has done OK in AAA this season as well as in the AFL, after a slow start.  They have also been rumored to have talked to the Cardinals about their surplus in outfielders.
  • Other free agent CF available (but not sure how good defensively they are) include:  Jarrod Dyson, Jon Jay, Carlos Gomez, Austin Jackson, and Cameron Maybin   I think the first two has been good defensive, but the latter three have not been above average in CF in recent seasons, while good when younger.
  • Another rumor has the Giants trading Samardzija and Melancon to the Cubs for Heyward.  Have to assume that is not that real, the Cubs want to dump Heyward because of his lack of offense and huge contract, not sure why the Giants would take that on AND give up two good players.  
  • The Giants have been mentioned as inquiring on free agent Brandon Morrow.  He has said he wants to return to the Dodgers, and while he was a Cal student, grew up in SoCal, so presumably has ties to that area and perhaps even rooted for the team while growing up.   So I see this more as a way to drive up his final price to the Dodgers, with some possibility of addition by subtraction by taking away the Dodger's most trustworthy reliever (they rode his arm hard).  The fear factor with Morrow is that his MLBTR projected 3 years, $24M deal is relying on him being healthy at ages 33-35, but his last full season as a pitcher was in 2011 when he was 26 years old.  Even this season, he was only used in 45 appearances during the season, he basically missed the first two months of the season, then the Dodgers used him in 14 of the 15 playoff games that they played.  He did get 5 days rest between playoff series, but his overuse caused him, apparently to explode in Game 5, helping to lose that game.  
  • With no starting 3B rumors, I would note that this could simply mean that the Giants will get a placeholder starting 3B, much like Wellemeyer in 2010, keeping the starting spot warm for Bumgarner, or McGehee in 2015, for Duffy.  They are looking for an improvement over Sandoval, which is not a high hurdle.  Also, I would note that this could also be motivational announcement for Sandoval to let him know that he needs to step up his off-season preparation so that he is prepared to battle for the starting 3B job in spring training.  He needs to grow up and man up.
  • Lastly, for now, the Giants have sent Hunter Cole to the Rangers to complete the Dyson trade.  He did not hit all that well in AA in 2017, but reportedly finished strong.  


  1. Forgot about another news tidbit to cool the jets on any Stanton thoughts for any team: rumor is that the Marlins price is extremely high right now (rightfully so, I think), and teams would have a high hurdle to get into serious talks.

    And that makes good business sense. You need to start high in negotiations, only a tyro would start where you think you can get good value. You never know, there could be a desperate team will to throw a lot at you.

    That said, the Marlins are not the ones in the catbird seat, they are the ones who said that they want to drop payroll and start a semi-rebuild. Teams will wait them out, I think.

    Meanwhile, teams will have made their decisions on the structure of their payroll and get the OF that fills their need, maybe not as well as Stanton, but at some point, the teams will move on to other options.

    The thing is, most of the time where teams dangle a good player for trade, asking for the moon, like the Twins and Johan Santana, long ago, they end up losing all their suitors and end up getting a package that is nothing like what they were originally offered by the teams initially. They move on, leaving the teams that couldn't maneuver to negotiate.

    Not that the Marlins have to trade Stanton now. Unlike Santana, he won't be a free agent anytime soon. But if the goal is to trade him this off-season, then starting high is not the way to go. This is the way to start the conversations, get a feel for what his value is, and then, down the line, maybe mid-season 2018, maybe off-season afterward, get to the trade that benefits the Marlins the way the owners want.

    This is also a way to get into conversation with the new GM as to what other players might be in play, the Marlins don't need to have to trade Stanton, they could trade Martin Prado, $13.5M and bam, they are halfway to the payroll reduction they desire, though that would be hard to do after his injury plagued season and poor batting line, the other team will need to believe he can return to his prior goodness.

    They have a number of guys who are $7-13M, so they could be using Stanton as bait to get GM's into a conversation, and then, by the by, are you interested in these other players, a classic bait and switch tactic. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

  2. Some interesting news on Ohtani:

    After weeks of others speculating about his future, Shohei Otani, the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters’ captivating two-way superstar, finally had his say.

    It’s not money pulling him toward the major leagues, nor the pursuit of renown. The 23-year-old star simply wants to become the best baseball player in the world, and he’s ready to kick the pursuit of his goal into high gear by moving to MLB this offseason via the posting system.

    “There are still so many things I’m lacking, and I want to put myself in an environment where I can improve,” Otani told a packed house at the Japan National Press Club on Saturday morning, a day after the Fighters announced they intended to honor his wishes and post him.

    “Hopefully I can go to a club that suits my way of thinking.”

    As for trying to succeed as a two-way player in the major leagues, the way he’s done for the past five seasons in NPB, Otani said he would have to first discuss the possibility with MLB clubs.

    “I don’t know if I’ll be given the chance to be able to do it, so first of all, I’ll have to listen to what they say,” Otani said. “It was the same when I joined the Fighters. You can’t go after something like that unless you’re in the right circumstance. It’s not just about what I want to do.

    “The one thing I can say is, when I graduated from high school, there were very few people who supported it. Now there are a lot more, including manager (Hideki) Kuriyama, who do. So I’d like to do my best for the sake of those people, but I would also first like to listen to what they (an MLB team) say.”

    1. Interestingly, he has spoken to two ex-Giants players, Kensuke Tanaka and Norichika Aoki. Hopefully they had good things to say, but maybe not for Tanaka, who didn't play that much for us.

    2. Based on this, the Giants seem to have as good a chance of any team to sign him, it seems to me.

      His clear strong suit is pitching, and the Giants are known to be a pitching oriented team, as well as one who teaches their pitchers well, Bumgarner being the best case study example.

      On top of that, I read from another source that he does not want to be the top dog, he knows he has a lot to learn, he wants to develop and become part of a team, which works for the Giants, he'll at best be #3 behind Bumgarner and Cueto, and probably be #5 behind Moore and Samardzija if he rises by mid-season.

      Plus, the Giants are not desperate for him to reach the majors immediately, they can take their time with him to start the 2018 season, then let him move at his own pace. They have a great track record with Lincecum and Bumgarner, showing that they will help each learn, and that they will promote you when it is time, not because they want to hold onto you for an extra season. Teams can say that they will look after him, but the Giants have demonstrated it with their actions, over and over again.

      Another great thing is that the Giants have been allowing Bumgarner to show off his home run hitting prowess, nothing that other teams can say about their pitchers. Not only that, they allowed him to DH in an AL game, as well as use him as a pinch hitter on occasion. It shows that the Giants are willing to think differently with their pitchers if they have other strengths, and demonstrated such willingness. Other teams can promise, the Giants have already done it. That should earn the Giants a lot of brownie points in the eyes of Ohtani (that's his name on the back of his uniform, per MLBTR, so I'm going with that now).

      While it's true that he can DH for AL teams, again, that's words, while the Giants have demonstrated that they will allow the pitching to do something with their hitting abilities. And he definitely looks like he has some sills, as he hit roughly 1.000 OPS in his last two seasons, and at the AAA level, that's pretty good, good enough to translate to the majors. .

      The Giants could take their time with him, work with developing his hitting, and give him spot starts in LF now and again, plus starts at 1b (though unfortunately while he throws right-handed, he bats left-handed, so he couldn't steal LHP starts from Belt). And it's not like they invested $20M in posting him, it seems to be minimal in terms of investment, allowing them to take more risks in letting him on the field, and playing a position. He hasn't played 1B before, though, so that would be different, but the Giants played both AnVil and Shaw at 1B, switching them from positions where they were used to playing, so that they can concentrate on their hitting.

      Now, of course, this could be all talk, a prospect saying all the right things, but based on what he said, the Giants seem to be a great destination for him based on his stated wishes.

      It also should help that the Giants have had Japanese players before and has a Japantown in town (plus another near by, in San Jose). Plus, a relatively large Japanese populations in the area.

    3. Funny thing is, the Japan Times would presumably know to use his right name, and they used Otani, not Ohtani, which is on his uniform, on the same article.

  3. I know a lot of folks have basically given up on Sandoval but I he may not be easy to replace.

    1. I have not given up on Sandoval, mainly because he costs us $545K and because he hit well for us at the very end.

      But to El's point, at this point, really easy to replace, based on what he has produced for us last season.

  4. Sandoval may not be easy to replace.

    Real easy to replace the WORST 3B in MLB
    .225 .263 .375 .638
    WAR -1.4

    1. I assume this is in response to nomisnala, as I did not state anything like this in my post.

      Extremely true on the face of everything, looking at his overall numbers.

      Mitigating circumstances are that Sandoval was out for a large part of the middle of the season, and had only returned to the Red Sox when he was released and picked up by the Giants. He had a .722 OPS in September, which is doable at 3B with average defense, and that was mostly due to an extremely hot 1.134 OPS he had over his last 11 games played. Maybe he needed to get out of spring training mode and into baseball shape?

      Yes, very extremely SSS, but he had not hit like that since a short streak like that in 2015, mid-season. Still, most assume that Panda is gone. What if he is under there, beneath the layers of fat and unhappiness that had built up since he left the Giants.

      I would not bet on him returning to his prior goodness. And neither are the Giants, looking for a starting 3B. But it does not cost much to find out if he still has it within himself. And the Giants are the ones who knows his hitting inside and out, so maybe they can unlock the Panda again. Again, basically no cost to find out, if he scuffles again, he is easily jettisoned after spring training or sooner, if he really lags.

      No use taking him on unless he's grown up some and matured. As that is what it would take for him to return to MLB goodness, taking responsibility for his health and body, and putting himself into position to do well. That short stint shows it's still in there somewhere. Now he needs to keep it going for a full season.

    2. Oh, a nitpick for sure, but, for me, process is important: that -1.4 WAR appears to be a full-season number including his time with Red Sox. Taking his Giants numbers and multiplying by 3 (513 PA), that's -1.2 bWAR or -1.0 fWAR, roughly.

      Still bad, still easily replaceable, but that's closer to what he did for us.

  5. If the giants traded span a prospect(s) for stanton while picking up the entire contract, who do you think the prospect(s) would be? Would they have to give up ramos in that deal?

    1. Hi Colt, thanks for the question.

      First off, I'll have to admit, I'm not the best at sizing up such a large deal on my own. I'm better at seeing what others suggest and noting what's bad with it, and how I would think about it. But I'll give it a shot, everyone feel free to poke holes in my thoughts on this.

      If I'm the Marlins, I'm looking for a mix of good to great prospects, and the more money the other team takes, the less I would get in return. As the A-Rod example showed, in spite of the big unwieldy contract, Texas, while paying a lot in terms of contract covered, got a lot in terms of players and prospects received in return, getting Alfonso Soriano and Joaquin Arias (yes, the ex-Giant).

      The problem is that we don't know how big a "re" are they looking for, a "reset" like Sabean has been talking about for the Giants, or a "rebuild", where they trade off everyone, be horrible for a while, then build off the prospects that they hit on. That makes it harder to handicap exactly what they are looking to do.

      One fact we know is that they are hoping to cut down their payroll from $115M to $90M. And interesting enough, Stanton is making $25M next season, so jettisoning him mainly to get rid of the contract would cover that in total. However, at $90M, that's not a rebuild, it's more of a reset, so they want to still be competitive, but want to pivot from some large contracts.

      Thus, trading Stanton just to get rid of a big contract don't make complete sense, you need to get some value back in terms of players, else you may as well rebuild by dropping payroll, say, to the $55M figure that was first put out when they took over.

      So, yeah, Ramos would be one prospect I would ask for. Probably Panik as well, hence why there is all the talk about pairing Stanton/Gordon in the deal with the Giants.

      But that's where the deal gets off the track where the Giants are concerned. We have no Soriano to give in return. Belt and Panik are really the best we can offer there (where Bumgarner and Posey are untouchables, and especially since Posey's salary would make the trade's contract savings moot) and Belt is getting a big salary this season too. And if I'm the Marlins, I would not trade Stanton unless I'm getting a good MLB player PLUS prospect(s).

      So it's Stanton/Gordon plus maybe $10M/season to cover salaries, for Panik, Arroyo, Ramos, Shaw, Beede, Andrew Suarez, and Moronta. Yes, a lot of prospects, but while we Giants fans value these prospects, the MLB does not seem to value them much, with only Arroyo being among the Top 100 MLB prospects, and in the low 90's at that. Soriano is way better than Panik, and Arias was a highly rated prospect. So maybe instead of all those prospects, perhaps 2-3 included instead.

      As the Marlins, as the horrible loss of Fernandez, any Stanton deal would need to replace Stanton, hence the talk about Ramos and why I include Shaw, the only Stanton like prospect we have, plus give them someone who could maybe, not take Fernandez's place, as he was too good, but just someone who looks like he can join an MLB rotation, which means Beede or Suarez. Suarez has additional appeal because he's a local player, just from marketing purposes. Same with Arroyo, both have links to Florida.

      But like I said, I'm not the best at pricing deals like this.

    2. Oh, just read further, the Marlins have salary increases that kicked in, so the cut is actually from $140M to $90M. That makes more sense, given the urgency most articles make of Stanton being traded. There is almost no way to chop off $50M without trading Stanton.

      Of course, that is just the goal. The prior owner was so bad that the team LOST $50M last season, and the new owners want to get to break-even in 2018. So $40M probably is doble for them.

      Even at that, that would take trading not just Stanton, but also other high priced players, like Prado $13.5M, Volquez $13.0M, Gordon $10.8M, Wei-Yin Chen $18M, Ziegler $9M, Tazawa $7M, Yelich $7M, and Ozuna $10.9M est.

      Most of them are untradeable. Prado is 34, only played 37 games, began and ended the season on DL, only .636 OPS when playing, and still has two more seasons on contract. Volquez had TJS, out for 2018. Gordon has some value, 30YO next season, low .716 OPS, but good .341 OBP and 60 steals, so he has value as a player. Wei-Yin Chen will be 32 YO and only pitched 9 starts/5 starts, 3.82 ERA. On top of that, he gets $52M over the next 3 seasons, to 2020, and has a vesting option for 2021 (unlikely given last two seasons). Ziegler will be 38YO, pitched 53 games, but 4.79 ERA, though 3.73 FIP. Tazawa only at 32 YO but 5.69 ERA in 55 games, 4.97 FIP equally bad. Only Yelich and Ozuna are truly valuable players. That's $60M+ of dead contracts, mostly.

      Honestly, seems to me that the Marlins will want to bundle one of their bad contracts with Stanton, in order to clear out enough salary, which means they can't ask for a ton of prospects. The Giants can't really afford to take on bad contracts right now, given their issues with keeping below CBT penalty threshold.

      Plus, forgot to mention, another negative to Stanton's contract is that he can opt out in 3 seasons, which will keep teams' interest in trading a lot of great prospects low, which works to the Giants advantage in terms of ability to offer a bundle of okay prospects.

    3. That's a big dealt, that Stanton can leave in 3 years. That will put a significant limit on what other teams will be willing to give up to the Marlins for Stanton. I suspect, as well, that Stanton will be meeting and talking with teams as well, and it would not surprise me if the Dodgers work out some deal where Stanton would give up his opt-out if they were to trade for him (he grew up Dodgers fan), whereas other teams would get no such assurance included.

      So the only way the Giants would be able to trade for Stanton is taking on a dead contract like Prado in addition to Stanton, or to trade for Gordon in a bundle with Stanton. Given the Giants can't afford to take on dead contracts, their best bet is to trade for Stanton/Gordon, which takes off $35.8M off their payroll, and getting Panik, projected $3.5M (plus easily tradeable to another team), plus prospects, which I would guess at Ramos, Suarez, Shaw. And it could take another significant prospect, like Beede or Arroyo, just because of that Dodger factor.

      Particularly if the Dodgers give up, say, Bellinger in the deal. He's only 22 YO next season, had a great debut season. And he can play OF as well as 1B (though 1B is his primary pro experience, and Marlins got Jason Boor). The Dodgers still has A-Gon to play 1B, assuming he is healthy enough. Bellinger could be the Soriano in such a trade deal, and probably won't require much else in return from the Dodgers in terms of prospects, though they would probably want some salary relief for Stanton's contract.

      Plus, Giants would want some contract relief as well.

      One way to mitigate the salary on both sides of the equation that I have not seen mentioned anywhere yet (not that I've looked that hard, just from Giants rumors) is for the Marlins to provide salary relief on the years of the contract AFTER the Stanton opt-out. So the Giants (or any other team, really, could do this) would be willing to take on Stanton's huge contract for the first 3 years, but after the opt-out, that period is where the contract becomes fraught with a lot of risk, and where teams would want help. This kind of deal structure would give the Marlins max payroll relief for a few seasons, when they really need it, but then spread the pain in latter seasons, say they provide $10M per season after that.

      Or even better, if Stanton opts out after 3 years, Marlin's contract obligation would be over. Might incent the Marlins to not trade with Dodgers, for if they know Stanton wants to go to Dodgers at some point, might be better to trade him to a team he's likely to leave after 3 years, so that the contract is over (barring career shortening injury), and not hanging over their heads.

    4. Oh, just noticed your mention of Span. I think it's a pipe dream to bundle Span into the deal unless we supply even more prospects to the deal. Might work if we include Gordon and Panik into the deal, as a balance, but it definitely would require including Arroyo or Beede into the deal.

      Thanks, interesting question.

    5. I think the odds are better for trading for Gordon. I think that they would prefer to have Arroyo and a better prospect for him, rather than take Panik and lesser prospect in return, because it will take about 2-3 years for all the bad contracts (Prado, Volquez, especially Chen) to clear out of their payroll budget, though $29M clears out after 2018, so they can start to try to compete again in 2019-2020.

      This does not solve the Giants stated priorities, but I know if the Giants would want to cobble together our best prospects to get a Yelich or Ozuna, without giving up some good prospects for the future.

      Getting an Ozuna seems much more likely than Yelich, who has a great lower cost contract whereas Ozuna is second year arb, with control to 2019. He has played CF before, is an upgrade on Span, though still below average defensively, plus has a lot of power, which as a RHH, won't get dampened as much in AT&T. He's more of a risk in that his great 2017 looks driven by good luck, .355 BABIP vs. career .318 BABIP prior. But plenty of power in prior seasons, plus won Gold Glove in 2017.

      For him, we might be able to get him for Ramos and Suarez, plus another prospect who is near ready, in 1-2 seasons, like a Duggar, Beede, though we may get away with a Williamson instead. Marlins will want guys ready to step up, so that they can build around a core of Yelich and/or Ozuna, maybe Brian Anderson, who is one of their up and coming prospects.

      I don't know if the Giants would want to give up on Ramos this early, given his success so far, but I think it would take that much to get Ozuna. But the Giants under Sabean has been pretty good at identifying players to keep, vs. trade away, not giving up much good value, so I've generally not get too upset over losing prospects I like, given his good track record, though lately, some cracks, losing Otero, Biagini, Duvall, Castillo.

      Looking over their roster, 3B Derek Dietrich could be available, who has also played at 2B, LF, and 1B. He has hit well and with some power, basically as a super-utility guy who don't play any position all that well, but doable at 3B because of his offense. He won't save Marlins that much money, $3.2M, but the Giants might be able to pry away with a lesser prospect than we would in other deals, Gregorio perhaps, though might take a Hinojosa or Corry, given the cloud on Gregorio for his drug bust. They need to drop a lot of salary to reach $40-50M, so every little bit could count.

      If they can dump Prado along with Stanton (which is really the only way I see them getting rid of Prado and the easiest way to reach their goal), that's $38.5M, plus Dietrich at $3.2M puts them at $41.7M dropped (again, I think they will push to save more money in 2018, and spread money passed along to later years, particularly in light of potential opt-out, where the promised money is only paid if no opt-out), and they keep their new core of Yelich and Ozuna, plus Anderson and whomever they get in exchange for Stanton.

      Then they can try to trade Gordon to get to $50M of payroll reduction, he should be much easier to trade, but they probably won't deal him until they get Stanton situation finalized, as they might have to trade Gordon in conjunction with Stanton, to get to the number that they want.

    6. Forgot Slater as a possible choice for a Ozuna deal, over Duggar, since he was so good in MLB in 2017. Bryan Reynolds would also be interesting to them in such a trade.

    7. Hank Schulman reported that a Marlin radio host tweeted deal as Stanton/Gordon for Panik, Shaw, and Beede. He also noted that, speaking to SF sources, that this does not "represent an accurate framework" for a deal. He also noted that Marlins are believed to be asking for Heliot Ramos.

      As many of you know, these rumors are just that. And, if Schulman Giants sources says something, while you can't believe it 100%, they are more reliable than other sources, from my experience of looking at rumors and then Schulman's sources responding through him.

      I believe that Marlins are asking for Ramos. I would if I were in their shoes. Does not mean that the Giants wants to trade them. Take for example, Toronto leaking all their offers for Cain or Lincecum, negotiating through the public, but basically Sabean said what any good GM would say when you are losing and got good young players: I'll listen to all offers. But it don't mean he'll bite if it is not good in his eyes.

      And often, the leaks are a way the other team has to let the rest of the majors know this is kind of what they are looking for in terms of return.

      The Schulman article noted that the Marlins have not yet asked for team's best and final offers, which, if they are well run (we have no idea given they are new, but that's negotations 101), means that these are all just starting points to see how willing (i.e. desperate) teams are to get Stanton from Marlins. Essentially, market research on industry demand. See who's willing to take on more salary, who's willing to give up more prospects (need to remember, just because other teams have more top prospects does not mean that they will be necessarily willing to give them up in order to trade for Stanton), and then their brain trust will need to discuss each offer, what their scouts say about the prospects and players in the proposed deal, and so forth.

      The Giants generally do not, as Sabean says, open their kimono by leaking out what they are doing. So any rumors about the Giants from another team are generally more about what the other team wants from the Giants, and less about what the Giants are actually offering in exchange.

      The Giants also try to protect their players from rumors like these by keeping strictly to their no talking rule. You never know how a player will react to being in trade talks, when most of these rumored deals don't ever go through. Some could be insulted and stop playing as well as he could, because mentally, he has checked out.

      Noticed how generic the denial is: framework is not accurate. It could mean Gordon is not part of the deal. It could mean Panik is not part of the deal. It could mean different lead prospects, maybe here's where Ramos comes in.

      But it could mean the deal is mostly this but we still don't know the money involved. And as Hank noted, this is just the start of negotiations, there could be more added or even changed, once the negotiations get down to the nitty gritty.

      In any case, as Hank noted, the deal seems plausible, but per his source, involves different people. Panik is the only real MLB talent that is still cheap who the Giants have available to trade, plus, at 27 YO next season, is basically the same age as Yelich and Osuna, and could be part of the next playoff contender they put together.

      Homers are nice, but they need pitching more than hitters, as they have Realmuto, Boor, Osuna, Yelich, plus Brian Anderson coming up at 3B. And Shaw plays 1B mostly, and is defensive liability in any case, and they have Boor at 1B and Osuna in LF (though could move to RF). So I believe the Beede part, and maybe they are asking for Ramos over a Shaw, plus I would push for Suarez, or even Stratton or Blach, since they have MLB successes. They have the offense, even without Stanton, but need a lot of pitching.



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